confusion central
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chicken or egg? (the deeper version)

I have reached the conclusion that rap music is an excellent embodiment of all things dysfunctional. I shouldn’t have to explain myself here (I am strongly opposed to the genre as a whole) but I will anyway for the sake of…open-mindedness? Sure.

In my relatively scattered attempts to make sense of life, the universe and everything, I have reached many conclusions about love, marriage, and, well, the things that accompany them. Frankly, I like to think I have a pretty good grasp of what makes love work and how that, in turn, makes marriage work. I probably don’t, but humoring myself keeps me in a good mood and willing to learn more. (Hey, I’m being honest here!)

And in these studies I have discovered – to some small degree – just how skewed our society is when it comes to conjugal love. Because rap music is constantly emphasizing mindless hooking up without any kind of relational development, I’m forced to conclude that perhaps the single greatest problem in our society can be traced back to our music. Or can it?

Would music glorify something a culture didn’t already condone? or has it become such a cultural status symbol because of the music? I’m more likely to blame the culture for tainting the music than visa versa because I think that music works with what it has. If a group of people in the culture decide that this is cool, their music is likely to reflect it.

There are countless examples of culture impacting music. The Beatles, for crying out loud. And, of course, there are cases where music reflects a desire for change in the culture – for instance, the entire genre known today as punk. Some music laments the fall of our culture (country) and some ignores deeper issues of life (pop). Other genres just shamelessly synchrotize their faith with their culture in order to appeal (CCM). But whatever the music does with the culture, it’s quite clear that the two are irrevocably attached.

So when we look at rap “music,” we have to wonder what, exactly, is being said here. Frankly, I find the music boring. It’s no longer shocking, it’s no longer exciting (if it was to some modicum of the populace to begin with). We all know exactly how it’s going to start (in a club), how things will become “exciting” (lots of alcohol), and how things will culminate (finding an attractive individual to go home with, or, given enough alcohol, just a willing person). Doesn’t this look like a symptom of a culture gone very, very wrong?

I suppose the question I have for my readers would run something like this.

A) To what extent do you believe music accurately reflects any culture?

B) To what extent do you believe music choice reflects any individual?

C) To what extent to you believe your music choice effects you? (Sometimes we are tempted to assign judgments to others that we wouldn’t assume for ourselves… :)   I know because I’m guilty of doing that. :x )

24 Responses to “chicken or egg? (the deeper version)”

  1. I think people gravitate toward a type of music because of who they are, but I also think music can definitely impact a person. The other day I was reading Psychology Today, and they actually had an article on this. It talked about people listening to music because of existing traits, but the music being able to impact mood and other things while not necessarily changing anything drastic. True punk rock is extremely political (and pretty much always very left leaning), and while it is doubtful a person who is conservative is going to change their political views because they like the music, it doesn’t mean they don’t have mental changes while listening to it. How often do you think people get “pumped up” to work out, skateboard or do something physically strenuous while listening to music that has no deeper meaning to them? I’d guess a bunch. Also, I know a lot of people who listen to secular rap music and are nice people with healthy relationships. I think it would be unfair, then, to say that music choice could accurately represent an individual to the extent of making judgments about their character. In many cases I think this may be true, but I don’t think you can make it a rule. I do think, however, that music popular within a culture can, to a large extent, predict its basic values. I think in many cases, if people are absolutely disgusted by the lyrics of what is essentially an entire genre (like I am with rap), they will not spend money on the music. But many rappers are rich, signaling that a large portion of the population do not mind the lyrics (at the very least). Of course, there are Christian rappers, and like I said earlier, there are people who listen to music that does not carry with it the values they truly represent. So to recapitulate, it probably depends a lot on the individual. I do think the rising popularity of rap is a good indication of just how valueless our society as a whole is becoming… because, hey! If you can do mindless hookups and just abort the baby later, why not?!? (Don’t answer that, it’s not a real question. That thought disgusts me.)
    Does what I just said make ANY sense whatsoever?

    • Thanks for your feedback, Ralph!

      Your first statement reminds me of my post on whether or not a person’s personality is based on what they’re born with or what happens to them or a little of both. It’s confusing and it can be really extremely circular…it’s hard to really know. You know? Music is easier to deal with because it’s external, but still…. O_o

      In my defense, I should say that I’m not plagiarizing…I don’t read Psychology Today. This really was an original idea! :D Lol.

      I think you’re right about people who use fast-paced or loud music to get them wired to do something.That’s what they do at the gym (which is irritating, because they just speed pop and country songs up instead of playing real fast music [that is, punk! :) ]). Perhaps. I’m inclined to agree, though this is something I didn’t initially think about.

      I hope we don’t judge anyone based on darn near anything except their actions in cooperation with or against God’s law, but to those nice friendly people who listen to rap, I’m forced to conclude that they just enjoy the style.

      Hmm hmm hmmm….
      Wait…. Music predicts basic values? Do you think we can use music as an indicator of a certain direction a culture is headed? Ah…but you go on to say that if people dislike the genre on moral grounds, they won’t spend money on it, therefore if more people were more confident about the morals they hold, they wouldn’t consider spending money on it. ;) Sorry! But this is a prime example of exactly why this can be extremely circuitous.

      This right here (the possibility of abortion) is a huge disincentive to actually find meaningful relationships and work to make them long-lasting. Birth control in pretty much any form is probably one of the biggest “triumphs” of the feminist movement…it creates a free-and-easy approach to what was once considered extremely serious and long-term, effectively removing the consequences of peoples’ actions (to a large extent) and soothing their consciences.

      What you said makes probably a lot more sense than what I wrote originally. ;) Thanks again for your thoughts. :) I’d love to continue the dialogue if you feel like wasting more time on this post. O_o Lol.

  2. Dang! My comment is longer than your original post! O_o Sorry about that…

  3. The genre is kind of tasteless IMHO.

    But you know me, I’m a rock fan.

  4. Elliott – what about the (heavy metal/Goth rock) that you listen to appeals to you so much more than rap? I’m not trying to pick a fight: I enjoy those genres sometimes. But it makes me wonder…

    Rap may be just tasteless but Nightwish and Lacuna Coil can be /weird/, especially when they draw in elements of ancient Irish mythology or whatever. :D You know? Sometimes it’s difficult to pin down what they heck they’re talking about!

    I suppose that raises another question…if you don’t understand the words of a song, should you listen to it? If, after lots of research, you /still/ have no clue what they’re talking about, does that make you at all uncomfortable? Lol. Just a thought. I like singing along to music I like but there are some songs I love that I feel weird singing because I don’t understand them. [/bunny trail]

  5. I’m not quite sure. It may be a personal preference issue, or it might be that you have to have talent to play and write most of the music that I like. Nightwish, Dream Theater, and Boston have written some amazing music.

    You’re forgetting that I find Norse mythology fascinating.

    If you don’t understand the lyrics, then don’t sing them. But there can be no harm in listening if you don’t understand them.

  6. Ah. Pointed little barbs, Elliott! I must agree, though I would argue that /because/ you listen to it doesn’t make it good. ;) I’m just kidding. You like Boston now? To what can we owe this? O_o last time I talked to you, you were “Eh” about classic rock. (Yes, “Eh” is an adjective describing unenthusiasm, which is also a word. :D )

    Eh. Lol. Norse mythology has its place. It can be creepy…. I like music to apply to everyday life. You know? Not mushy teen pop about romance, but something you can actually apply. Vagueness can be fun sometimes, though.

    That isn’t entirely true….

  7. Ok! Um, I guess my final conclusion is going to have to be it depends largely on an individual. I like punk because it makes me think. Bad Religion, Anti-Flag, NOFX, Rise Against, and bands like that have lyrics that are a lot more meaningful than pretty much anyone else’s. I don’t agree with the majority of things they say, but at least I’m getting some sort of substance to think about, you know? (Plus, I just love the music.) I think it’s impossible to make a rule one way or the other, you know? There are going to be a lot of people who like the music because they like the style, and there are going to be a lot of people who take the message to heart. So… In my opinion, you may be able to make generalizations, but there will be a LOT of exceptions. I don’t know… that doesn’t help at all, does it? 0_o

  8. I see we’ve put the historical aspect of music against the practical application.

    I’m getting out of this generalities with as many exceptions as there are here would be hard to call “generalities.” I think I agree…
    Taking into account the varied reasons people even start listening to any kind of music, much less their reasons for choosing the genres they eventually decide to like (my tastes have never stopped evolving, as you know well), the different impacts music can have on character is equally difficult to judge. (eep. /that/ was a run-on sentence…)

    Essentially this can be condensed in both cases to the reality that modern pop and rap are extremely vapid, giving the listener nothing to think about as goth rock (I believe that’s what Nightwish is…idk…)and punk do. I agree entirely on both counts. So yeah! Rap does not promote independent thinking. More of a herd mentality, I think, that other, less “popular” genres do.

    Hmmm. I think next time I’ll just let the smart people write about this topic in Psychology Today. :D

  9. Side note: I’ve been inspired to create a playlist which I shall title “Weird” in which I plan to mix Bad Religion, Nightwish, Sum 41, Evanescence and Good Charlotte.

    :) Thanks, guys!

    And for the record, you guys couldn’t be any further on the song-length scale. I have one BR song that’s literally 1.5 minutes long and Nightwish’s /The Poet and the Pendulum/ is 13:54. :D That makes me laugh. I’ll quit now. I think I give up on this topic….

  10. Bad Religion has a song that’s 56 seconds, and another that’s 52! lol. They’re awesome… ;)
    On a seperate note, punk easily has what are the hardest bass lines to play. MxPx has some pretty dang complicated ones and so does Anti-Flag. “Higher Ground” by the Chili Peppers is way easier to play than some of the songs by Sum 41 and Rise Against I’ve been learning. (Ever heard “Higher Ground”? The bass line in it is considered one of the greatest ever written. It’s not exactly easy to play. ;) )

  11. Some very interesting comments, Ralph, lots of good stuff. And, Lydia, of course, always thought provoking.

    A band that was popular when I was in college (oh so many years ago) called PWEI (pop will eat itself) put a quote by Jimmy Swaggert at the beginning of one of their songs. It impacted me a lot more than the album did, actually.

    “What is the truth about rock music? Music is a powerful and perhaps the most powerful medium in the world. Music.

    Plato says when the music of a society changes, the whole society will change. Aristotle, a contemporary of Plato’s, says when music changes there should be laws to govern the nature and the character of that music. Lenin says that the best and the quickest way to undermine any society is through its music…

    Music, ladies and gentleman, is the gift of God; it was given to man to offer praises to God and to lift us up to him and to exalt Him, to touch the tender recesses of our hearts and of our minds. Satan has taken music and he has counterfeited it, convoluted it, twisted it, exploited it and now he’s using it to hammer, hammer, hammer, hammer, hammer a message into the minds and the lifestyles of this generation.”
    –”Jimmy Swaggert”–

    Music, it seems, does have a huge effect on society. Does the society have an effect on music? Of course, but until the music comes out, it is usually an un-said, often personally (and perhaps lonely and longing) feeling that aches inside a particular generation. It may not be the majority, and it may be that the majority has some sense of socio-moral regard and respect for the impact that certain things would have on others, particularly youth, if voiced aloud.

    Many times, though, I think that these feelings are simple, immature and half-thought out, though intensely felt emotions and ideas rambling and tumbling through the minds of youth, immature adults or angry, angst ridden parties – things we all feel at some point or another in our lives: most rightly silenced by a love of God or fellow man; some feed on through a mere childish attempt to want everyone to be just as angry and malicious as the singer/songwriter. (now beat that for a run-on sentence!! :) )

    Notice, most “entertainers” are about as morally grounded as socks on winter carpet. Morality is what “goes” and that, for the most part, changes with each generation repeating forever the mistakes of our fathers and mothers (we are so quick to forget – read Ecclesiastes).
    However a minority those songwriters or singers may be, once that music gets out, music is such a powerful medium to move emotion, reason, worship and love as well as madness, angst and chaos, it can change an entire generation and take several generations to fix the mess (e.g. 1960-70).

    There will be people motivated by music to do both good and bad things. Music changes our lives. But it is better to write yourself a song with the understanding of tradition, than be moved by the unrelenting flow of confused youth simply trying to break it. (Back to that idea of yours, Bumblebee, that rap, etc, do not promote independent thinking.)
    That is why for so many years we were taught the classics. Now they are ignored. Freedom has become misunderstood – all emotion is not worth exploring nor sharing to its fullest and all ‘expression’ is not art.

    On the subject of bass-lines, Chili Peppers’ Flea just can’t be beat for style, art and skill. But my favorite remains a simple rift from Concrete Blonde, Bloodletting (the vampire song).

  12. oh, that was long. sorry.

  13. i love Norse mythology! now there is a mythology with teeth to it! one-eyed gods who fight to the end and know they will loose, but do it anyway. grrr, no wonder we norse are burly with beards!

    i wanna go work some heavy machinery now… (and listen to Boston and Pink Floyd)

  14. Ralph: Punk = micromusic! :D I love it. My attention span is…um…yeah. lol.

    Uhm…I’m not a RHCP fan… :x you’re gonna have to show me what makes this particular bassline so great (I haven’t heard it…sorry). :)

    James: I agree entirely with your contention that music shapes cultures and can take forever to clean up (1960-70). We’re still feeling the effects of that entire ideologyfest. Ugh….
    One thing I would take and run with is the idea that music written with an understanding of the past is better than music
    that just repeats past mistakes(for example, some punk that advocates anarchy). But I think any genre can be found guilty of doing exactly this. We would be a far wiser generation if we learned that the past isn’t our enemy, it /can/ be our best friend /if/ we choose to learn from it instead of mocking it as outdated.

    I don’t know. The brilliant ideas aren’t flowing today! ;) I’ll check back later. :)

    (BTW, I think we’ve reached the point where the original post is about 1/10th the length of the comments! :D I love that.)

  15. I didn’t really follow the comments, so forgive me If I’m like destroying a common theme here or anything.

    But to answer ur questions, “Bumblebee”:
    A) If you look up the definition of culture it’s the “customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or social group. Since music is definitely art (although some would disagree if certain genres of music are ;) ), I don’t think one could answer this question any other way.

    B) So I think it follows that the choice of music reflects the individual. For example look at groups of people. People that hang out around skate parks listen to a very distinct style of music, dress accordingly, and hang out with other people who like similar music.

    With that said, I think your making a huge assumption. You’re assuming that there needs to be a well defined “marriage” structure for society to function correctly. I’m definitely not saying I think it’s fine to have sex outside of marriage, but what I am saying is that for you to be able to say a lifestyle in our society is dysfunctional, you have to prove why that lifestyle is dysfunction on absolute terms in relation to society as a whole. Otherwise how can we condemn it, or a genre of music that is associated with it?

  16. Oh, and P.S. not all rap music is boring. you must not listen to enough of it, it’s not just about clubs and girls and stuff. that’s really more the R&B pop stuff that tops the “charts”.

  17. Interesting Mark. Interesting.
    Ironically, it isn’t really all that modern, but the idea that modern thought surpasses the ideals and principles of our fathers and our father’s fathers leads us to constantly assume that they must have been, wrong, prejudiced, patronizing, or simply self-righteous. “Modern” men and women want to go back and re-invent the wheel or morality because we think ourselves so much smarter than our predecessors. Must we truly? Must we “prove why that lifestyle is dysfunctional on absolute terms in relation to society as a whole?”

    Not only do I not think we do, I propose it is impossible to do so. Not just for this case, mind you. Anything that demands to be “proved absolutely” breaks down. This mistake is referred to in philosophy and theology as “Evidentialism” and then, moving in the same thought line, “Classical Foundationalism” breaks forth.
    These ideas state basically that all knowledge (beliefs or even morals) must be built upon prior proven knowledge and the line must go back ad infinitum. The flaw is that nothing can do such. Infinitely speaking, we must see that we can never even begin a debate. The solution to this is a “properly basic” or “legitimately basic” : a belief that is grounded in a foundation or *is* the foundation upon which we lay our claim.

    Modern men and women, since the Enlightenment have usually rejected these basic beliefs (ie, the most fundamental of which is “There is a Truth and it is Absolute”) because they dismissed all authority which claimed it – usually the Church or Government. The problem with that came when people who were not (are not) as intellectually inclined, spiritual or even wise started claiming “truths” for themselves outright – as the saying goes, “Modern man will stand for anything – except a woman on the bus.”

    What all this leads us to is this. That the common man (and let us not be fooled into thinking we aren’t in that crowd, we are) makes his own rules, and sings about it. Those willing to listen are dragged on in the flood that music and culture produce, and lastly, sadly, have been looking at the wrong “American Idol” for so long that they don’t recognize the Truth nor Wisdom (nor real talent…) when He comes. Traditions are swept away because they are old.

    Morals don’t die of old age, men do. Morals, speaking from a socio-anthropological standpoint, are tested and secured with age. Therefore I see Bumblebee’s point in the remarks about society and the music that relate to it. Do I think it bad to be able to speak or sing one’s mind? No. Do I believe things should censured? To some extent, yes. I believe the basic foundation handed down through our fathers (or Uncle Ben’s) that with Power comes Responsibility. With Freedom comes the Weight of bearing our Brothers and Sisters Burdens along with us and the Responsibility we must take – not share – of the Freedoms of our Tongue. Must more concisely, be careful what we say, it does have repercussions. Loose lips sink ships, and that not just in wartime.

    Is sex outside the marriage good? No. Do I have to prove it to make my point? No. I could. But Bumblebee doesn’t have to dispute that. People need to be educated, especially learning their history and literature – then they would have already heard those solid arguments for proper Marriage, sexual relations and fundamental morality (though I completely understand that the spiritually blind will never see any truth shoved under their noses). But then again, learning ones history is often disregarded because, well, those people are old, un-evolved and dead. What does it matter what they said.

    Hurmph. “Modern Man.”

    (PS, I wrote this straight out, without planning it, so its probably chock full of mistakes and I might get “owned” on my thinking too, but hey, keeps me humble.)

  18. Hey James, that’s a pretty huge post, thanks for typing that all out. It’s really interesting.

    I think you’re not quite getting where I’m coming from though. We need to contrast two ideas: if something is morally correct, and a judgment on if society is dysfunctional. Since bumblebee used the word dysfunctional in her post, I assumed she was referring to the success of society on the whole, not if rappers are moral people.

    You’re right about morals. Our parents and grandparents have held to them, and for the most part they are based on belief systems, and can’t really be rationally proven entirely. Yet if we believe them too, then we hold them to be logical and the right thing to do.

    However when we’re judging if society is dysfunctional as a whole, we need to be more rational. Our fathers and grandfathers would be just as rational in dealing with this, studying society from a rational perspective is not a modern idea at all. To prove something is dysfunctional we could say something like this:

    Having sex outside of marriage results in the traditional family being broken down. As a result kids are born into broken homes, which results in a higher chance of them committing violent crime (statistically speaking). Violent crime is something we would define as part of a dysfunctional society. As a result we could tie sex outside of marriage to a dysfunctional society.

    Of course this is just an argument I thought of off the top of my head, and doesn’t take into account any actual statistics or factors such as birth control, etc. But the idea would be the same. I was just trying to point out that bumblebee’s post didn’t really do that, so it left us hanging like, “yeah, so what?”

  19. Excellent response! Thanks!
    I don’t want confusion here (on confusion central) that if something isn’t grounded absolutely, (in a logical sense) that it isn’t rational. Logic and rationality are two entirely different things. Our logic in putting our arguments together should be sound. Our “rational” perspectives on morals are really oxymoronic – if our belief in a certain system is properly founded (not just because we believe it) it can be rationally proven, though that rational argumentation only stems from the fact that God granted us such ability – it cannot be used to prove Him, but it can be used to properly assess the world around us (including the metaphysical one) but arguing against God in such a manner is like, as Lewis noted, cutting off the branch you’re sitting on.

    My point was this – though those points can be argued properly, they cannot be proved upon “evidence” in such a manner than the evidence it is based on must be based on something, ad infin. Where do we stop? We must come, rationally, and logically (if possible in any given discussion) from a common standpoint – standpoints that many people have now disregarded simply because they a) thought them outdated, as though a can of peaches, b) didn’t understand it (who said that was criteria for life?) or c) because they just felt like rebelling. And in that rebelling, against authority, sexual morays, or God Himself, we are inspiring others to do the same – but that when the house of cards fall because of it, we blame others, not ourselves.

    I know what you mean, that in such a post, or argument or whatever, that we need to base these statements on more grounding than just our own whims. But Bumblebee has never really been known to do that, even though she claims it often. Most of the “evidences” and reasons for these said beliefs and opinions are listed well back in her own postings. Nor is this a class assignment for grad-school in which I would demand far more notation than even Rene Girard gives in his books. But your point is valid and well made.

    Unfortunately, most people who disagree with these statements, are not as open minded about the reasons as they claim. People fight for sexual promiscuity and society’s popular forms of music glorify it and they rely on each other for comfort and assurance. A very foolish and circular thing to do.

    As for the reasoning behind dysfunctionality, it is a good one. But one that should be taught to anyone anyway – they are simply straight facts (particularly with the statistics, yes) but people don’t want to hear them because they think you’re spouting “your own” morality at them. May be. But that morality has a real foundation. Just because many people like to or want to disobey doesn’t make that foundation (in God) any less real. It goes back to education and authority.

  20. Well I was only trying to make one point. Morality is very different from judging society on its terms. Morality is something that is a personal belief generally backed up by religion. Judging society’s morals (if they’re generally beneficial based on a preset set of standards) is something we might also need to do, and it needs to be based on some rationality. Of course, not everyone would agree on the conclusions one comes to when we argue something like that premarital sex (for example) is bad. Do people really agree on anything though?

    P.S. I don’t really get the CS Lewis reference.

  21. Lol, and yeah I understood what you meant in your argument – but aren’t you viewing the world from one really quite ethnocentric perspective? You have to separate personal morals with abstract judgments about society.

  22. Lewis noted that arguing against God “rationally” was like cutting off the branch you are sitting on because all of your mental abilities come from Him anyway. It can be (and has been) applied to morality as well.

    You say yourself that society’s morals “if they are generally beneficial based on a preset set of standards) is something we might also need to do…” but you miss the point – it is the preset set of standards – not the rationality. What is the preset, and more specifically, *who* sets a preset? Like I say, we cannot go back infinitely. God must be the “presetter” – the argument for that is a long one, and indeed the very one that I have said Bumblebee doesn’t need to make — because it has already been made. I refer you to Alvin Plantinga, Thomas Aquinas, Barth, the list is very extensive.

    Ethnocentric perspective sounds like a nice way of calling someone narrow-minded. Which really only redirects the questioning to *me* and away from the position we are discussing. Am I narrow? No, but the truth is. Truth by nature is defining and exclusive. Am I narrow-minded because I hold to the truth? I don’t think so; I have studied (and as Christians, we are commanded to do so) every other angle available. If others are not “narrow-minded,” I ask them if they are willing to explore the claims of Christ, even (and especially) when they take us places we don’t want to go. I read what Christ said and, no joke, He messed me up. Turned my life all upside down. I didn’t like it. But its the truth, and now I love it. and Him.

    Sorry, besides, we are getting perhaps wayyyyy off the point and poor Bumblebee has to sit through it even she doesn’t want to. (though I think I know the answer to that). Anyway, Happy Resurrection Sunday! Long live the Korban Pesach! (Passover Sacrifice)

  23. I missed the word, “judging” in “judging society’s morals”. sorry.


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